Settling the Record
+9
Calith
Arla Neerus
Sigismund
Alicia Jornali
Nightshade
Amator Bellum
Amelin
Azim Dekshari
Agrippina
13 posters
TESRP :: In Character :: Apocrypha
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Settling the Record
It appears that, by some Daedric ploy, I am the only one of my kind with access to these ledgers. As fortune would have it, everyone else present is harshly opposed to the Dominion and my people. Since I have no wish to spend my days engaging in the same arguments and being subject to the same abuse, I suggest we have this issue out and be done with it.
The first complaint levelled against the Dominion is that we suppress the right to worship. Yet this is not so. We seek to preserve proper worship, not hinder it. For more than a millennium, your people worshipped eight gods. So it had been, and so it always was. It was only when Tiber Septim’s vanity could no longer be contained by his imperial palace that this eternal equilibrium was disrupted. The Empire declared his apotheosis – an act unparalleled in the history of the Pantheon. The Septims forced his godhood upon the people of their empire, so as to enhance the prestige of their regicidal dynasty. Only the Nords truly believed in Tiber Septim’s godhood, and for reasons of tribal nationalism. To the Imperial bureaucrats, it was mere propaganda. This blasphemy was tolerated so long as the Empire could enforce its doctrine upon its subject peoples. Now that its grip has weakened, we can now reverse years of deception and blasphemy by banishing the insidious Septim Cult from the land. Only by ending this effrontery against the Divine can we receive their favour. It is the duty of all the pious pilgrims.
The second complaint is that we seek to achieve our aims through war. The Empire is established as the peaceable victim of the warmongering Dominion: Cyrodiil as the unsuspecting victim of ruthless Alinor. This is simply laughable. Was the Empire founded on peace and cooperation? Did Cyrodiil submit to the Septims out of generosity or respect? No. Tiber Septim did not inherit an empire with a handshake; he carved it out with a sword. He brought every province to heel by military force. Even Cyrodiil and the Imperial City fell into his hands by conquest, not cooperation. He murdered his own liege in order to obtain the title of Emperor. No empire was ever born from pacifism, nor sustained itself through inaction. For centuries, the Empire exerted hegemony over her neighbours through strength of arms. Even Akaviri once played host to the invading armies of the Empire. Now, she has become decrepit and decayed, and a new power is rising to supplant her. This is the immortal narrative of history – the end of an empire long bereft of glory or grandness. I saw no complaints from the Imperials when their empire was imposing its will on others by force. Now that the Dominion uses force to assert her sovereignty, the Imperials speak as if we were Daedra incarnate.
The Thalmor saved Alinor from succumbing to Oblivion. Our people would have been butchered by Daedric demons were it not for their timely intervention. They preserved our race from extinction. Then they asserted our independence from the Empire; they cast out the tyrants imposed upon us by the Imperial City. We have fought for our freedom, and we have prevailed. Now we fight for the freedom of all the Mer races. Alinor and Valenwood are united; Altmer and Bosmer stand together in friendship. Even the Khajit kingdoms in Elsweyr stand with us. Soon, we shall extend the Dominion to the Dunmer in Morrowind. Our dark-skinned brethren have been victims of the Nords and the Argonians for too long. Only when the Dominion extends from Alinor to Solstheim will our people be safe and secure from the predations of the Empire. Then the Mer races shall be restored to the glory snatched from them by Tiber Septim.
For years, our people have been held in captivity to Cyrodiil. We are Tamriel’s oldest civilisation. We shall be slaves no longer.
The first complaint levelled against the Dominion is that we suppress the right to worship. Yet this is not so. We seek to preserve proper worship, not hinder it. For more than a millennium, your people worshipped eight gods. So it had been, and so it always was. It was only when Tiber Septim’s vanity could no longer be contained by his imperial palace that this eternal equilibrium was disrupted. The Empire declared his apotheosis – an act unparalleled in the history of the Pantheon. The Septims forced his godhood upon the people of their empire, so as to enhance the prestige of their regicidal dynasty. Only the Nords truly believed in Tiber Septim’s godhood, and for reasons of tribal nationalism. To the Imperial bureaucrats, it was mere propaganda. This blasphemy was tolerated so long as the Empire could enforce its doctrine upon its subject peoples. Now that its grip has weakened, we can now reverse years of deception and blasphemy by banishing the insidious Septim Cult from the land. Only by ending this effrontery against the Divine can we receive their favour. It is the duty of all the pious pilgrims.
The second complaint is that we seek to achieve our aims through war. The Empire is established as the peaceable victim of the warmongering Dominion: Cyrodiil as the unsuspecting victim of ruthless Alinor. This is simply laughable. Was the Empire founded on peace and cooperation? Did Cyrodiil submit to the Septims out of generosity or respect? No. Tiber Septim did not inherit an empire with a handshake; he carved it out with a sword. He brought every province to heel by military force. Even Cyrodiil and the Imperial City fell into his hands by conquest, not cooperation. He murdered his own liege in order to obtain the title of Emperor. No empire was ever born from pacifism, nor sustained itself through inaction. For centuries, the Empire exerted hegemony over her neighbours through strength of arms. Even Akaviri once played host to the invading armies of the Empire. Now, she has become decrepit and decayed, and a new power is rising to supplant her. This is the immortal narrative of history – the end of an empire long bereft of glory or grandness. I saw no complaints from the Imperials when their empire was imposing its will on others by force. Now that the Dominion uses force to assert her sovereignty, the Imperials speak as if we were Daedra incarnate.
The Thalmor saved Alinor from succumbing to Oblivion. Our people would have been butchered by Daedric demons were it not for their timely intervention. They preserved our race from extinction. Then they asserted our independence from the Empire; they cast out the tyrants imposed upon us by the Imperial City. We have fought for our freedom, and we have prevailed. Now we fight for the freedom of all the Mer races. Alinor and Valenwood are united; Altmer and Bosmer stand together in friendship. Even the Khajit kingdoms in Elsweyr stand with us. Soon, we shall extend the Dominion to the Dunmer in Morrowind. Our dark-skinned brethren have been victims of the Nords and the Argonians for too long. Only when the Dominion extends from Alinor to Solstheim will our people be safe and secure from the predations of the Empire. Then the Mer races shall be restored to the glory snatched from them by Tiber Septim.
For years, our people have been held in captivity to Cyrodiil. We are Tamriel’s oldest civilisation. We shall be slaves no longer.
Agrippina- Posts : 74
Join date : 2012-04-05
Re: Settling the Record
Bah. The worship of the divines as the rest of you understand is flawed, anyways. Ruptga, Satakal, and the rest of the Pantheon are the true gods of the world. But, that's not the bulk of your discussion.
The biggest issue I have here is your assertion that the Empire's imperialistic ways were its biggest flaws. You go on to say that the Aldmeri Dominion will control much of, if not all of, Tamriel, and then force its oppressive laws upon the populous. While it is naive to believe that the Empire spread through peace, you paint yourself, and other elves, as champions, only spreading light and goodness to us lesser men. Have you considered that the Dunmer don't want to be a part of your Dominion? Or do you intend to force them into servitude. Or, as you put it, "standing together in friendship."
The biggest issue I have here is your assertion that the Empire's imperialistic ways were its biggest flaws. You go on to say that the Aldmeri Dominion will control much of, if not all of, Tamriel, and then force its oppressive laws upon the populous. While it is naive to believe that the Empire spread through peace, you paint yourself, and other elves, as champions, only spreading light and goodness to us lesser men. Have you considered that the Dunmer don't want to be a part of your Dominion? Or do you intend to force them into servitude. Or, as you put it, "standing together in friendship."
Azim Dekshari- Posts : 40
Join date : 2012-04-07
Re: Settling the Record
Agrippina wrote:Altmer and Bosmer stand together in friendship.
Your treatment of my kind say otherwise.
Amelin- Posts : 126
Join date : 2012-04-04
Re: Settling the Record
why cant imperialmer also stand togehter
Amator Bellum- Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-04-03
Re: Settling the Record
I was always under the impression that the Altmeri can't stand ashborn. Or anyone what wasn't themselves.
Besides, even if my people managed to take Morrowind back, we would be too busy trying to rebuild what we lost to care about joining a Dominion in a war or whatever.
Besides, even if my people managed to take Morrowind back, we would be too busy trying to rebuild what we lost to care about joining a Dominion in a war or whatever.
Nightshade- Posts : 321
Join date : 2012-04-02
Location : Around
Re: Settling the Record
And so you decide to torture to death every Talos worshiper you find. Don't you think that's... excessive?Agrippina wrote:The first complaint levelled against the Dominion is that we suppress the right to worship. Yet this is not so. [...] Only by ending this effrontery against the Divine can we receive their favour. It is the duty of all the pious pilgrims.
If you wanted to have simple sovereignty, you should have kept to your island. Invading another nation is an act of direct aggression, and one that your leaders should have known would lead to all out war.The second complaint is that we seek to achieve our aims through war. [...] Now that the Dominion uses force to assert her sovereignty, the Imperials speak as if we were Daedra incarnate.
That right there is a big, fat lie, though one that I am not surprised you believe.The Thalmor saved Alinor from succumbing to Oblivion.
Last I checked, you 'united' them by making them your slaves.Now we fight for the freedom of all the Mer races. Alinor and Valenwood are united; Altmer and Bosmer stand together in friendship. Even the Khajit kingdoms in Elsweyr stand with us. Soon, we shall extend the Dominion to the Dunmer in Morrowind. Our dark-skinned brethren have been victims of the Nords and the Argonians for too long.
If 'glory' means 'lording your superiority over everyone else', leave me out of it.Only when the Dominion extends from Alinor to Solstheim will our people be safe and secure from the predations of the Empire. Then the Mer races shall be restored to the glory snatched from them by Tiber Septim.
And yet you enslave others. How quaint. You remind me of those House Dres traditionalists.For years, our people have been held in captivity to Cyrodiil. We are Tamriel’s oldest civilisation. We shall be slaves no longer.
Alicia Jornali- Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-04-07
Re: Settling the Record
What laws are these? Aside from the prohibition of the Septim Cult, I cannot see how our judiciary is in any way more oppressive or overbearing than the existing Imperial apparatus. Perhaps you should inquire with the Stormcloaks their opinions on the benevolence of Imperial law. The few who have not been rounded up and executed on mass, of course.Azim Dekshari wrote:The biggest issue I have here is your assertion that the Empire's imperialistic ways were its biggest flaws. You go on to say that the Aldmeri Dominion will control much of, if not all of, Tamriel, and then force its oppressive laws upon the populous.
Would they prefer to remain imprisoned in Solstheim, their ancestral homeland in the hands of the Argonians?Azim Dekshari wrote:Have you considered that the Dunmer don't want to be a part of your Dominion? Or do you intend to force them into servitude. Or, as you put it, "standing together in friendship."
For centuries, the Dunmer have been neglected by the Empire and abused by its subjects. The Imperial City did nothing as the Argonians seized the disaster-stricken Vvardenfell and drove its people into the sea. The Dunmer have lost everything but Solstheim - and even that is being eyed enviously by the Nord. If they wish to reclaim Morrowind - if they desire to survive as a species - then they will accept the hand we offer them.
What treatment is that? The maintenance of your roads? The preservation of your cities? The protection of your lands from Imperial irredentism?Amelin wrote:Your treatment of my kind say otherwise.
No more brutal than the methods used to install the Septim Cult in the first place. If the Concordat was simply honoured by the population of Skyrim, we would not have necessity to resort to such measures. But our edict is continually and publicly flouted. Therefore, we must have a suitably harsh deterrent to encourage the cultists to forsake their false religion. Such is the only way that the Septim Cult may be extinguished. Otherwise, it will persevere as a continual atrocity in the eyes of the Divine.Alicia Jornali wrote:And so you decide to torture to death every Talos worshiper you find. Don't you think that's... excessive?
And then what? Wait until the Empire sufficiently recovered to reclaim its land and subject us to direct rule once more? Wallow in inactivity as the Imperials rebuilt and rearmed? Offer friendship to Titus Mede, even as he plotted the destruction of the Dominion? When we declared war on the Empire, it was on the verge of invading Valenwood. They had dispersed their spies throughout the province. They were plotting our ruin. Our only crime was to attack them before they could attack us. It was necessary that we did so, in order to forestall the demise of the Dominion.Alicia Jornali wrote:If you wanted to have simple sovereignty, you should have kept to your island. Invading another nation is an act of direct aggression, and one that your leaders should have known would lead to all out war.
It is universally agreed on both sides of the divide that the Thalmor held off the Daedra on Alinor. The chronicles state as such.Alicia Jornali wrote:That right there is a big, fat lie, though one that I am not surprised you believe.
So when the Imperials incorporate resistant races into their autocratic hegemony, they are simply 'uniting the land'. Yet when we bring our fellow Mer into the Dominion, we 'enslave' them. It seems our only crime in doing so is not being human. The Empire once held all of Tamriel under its oppressive thumb, yet no one accused her of being ruthless and warmongering.Alicia Jornali wrote:Last I checked, you 'united' them by making them your slaves.
Agrippina- Posts : 74
Join date : 2012-04-05
Re: Settling the Record
Eh, I don't have too much in the way of problems with the Thalmor. Dad hated them, I think, but you know as long as you follow what they want and everything they do tend to leave you be.
And they pay well. Really well.
And they pay well. Really well.
Sigismund- Posts : 44
Join date : 2012-04-03
Re: Settling the Record
I agree that the Empire has indeed warmongered in the past. But at least those who were not men had rights. While people still trod upon them - racism will never vanish - they were not forced into servitude.Agrippina wrote:So when the Imperials incorporate resistant races into their autocratic hegemony, they are simply 'uniting the land'. Yet when we bring our fellow Mer into the Dominion, we 'enslave' them. It seems our only crime in doing so is not being human. The Empire once held all of Tamriel under its oppressive thumb, yet no one accused her of being ruthless and warmongering.
And before you lecture me, I know what slavery looks like - I have seen it in person. I can tell you with certainty that the Dominion's treatment of the bosmer and khajiit is slavery to the letter.
... excuse me for taking a moment, I am very angry right now.
Continuing.
You wait until they respond to your demand for sovereignty, defend your island, and wait for them to be recalled. It is very difficult for the Empire to continue an unpopular war. As for spies, I think you are a bit paranoid. The Empire's spy network was never that good.Agrippina wrote:And then what? Wait until the Empire sufficiently recovered to reclaim its land and subject us to direct rule once more? Wallow in inactivity as the Imperials rebuilt and rearmed? Offer friendship to Titus Mede, even as he plotted the destruction of the Dominion? When we declared war on the Empire, it was on the verge of invading Valenwood. They had dispersed their spies throughout the province. They were plotting our ruin. Our only crime was to attack them before they could attack us. It was necessary that we did so, in order to forestall the demise of the Dominion.Alicia Jornali wrote:If you wanted to have simple sovereignty, you should have kept to your island. Invading another nation is an act of direct aggression, and one that your leaders should have known would lead to all out war.
I'm sorry, but they would have been overrun if not for the actions of Martin Septum.Agrippina wrote:It is universally agreed on both sides of the divide that the Thalmor held off the Daedra on Alinor. The chronicles state as such.Alicia Jornali wrote:That right there is a big, fat lie, though one that I am not surprised you believe.
Alicia Jornali- Posts : 71
Join date : 2012-04-07
Re: Settling the Record
I still haveunt seen where it is ok to hate Imperials? We were just better warriors at the time. It is the way things go. If you lose a war you have lost the war. It is not the fault of those who defeat you but only your own.
The next war against the thalmor we will not lose.
The next war against the thalmor we will not lose.
Amator Bellum- Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-04-03
Re: Settling the Record
Rights are a poor substitute for independence.Alicia Jornali wrote:I agree that the Empire has indeed warmongered in the past. But at least those who were not men had rights. While people still trod upon them - racism will never vanish - they were not forced into servitude.
The Khajiit kingdoms are sovereign and independent, bound only to the Dominion by treaty. They are protectorates of the Dominion, not subjects. As for the Bosmer, it was they themselves who overthrew the Imperial administration in Valenwood and petitioned to join the Dominion. Slaves do not get to exercise free will. Yet the Bosmer and the Khajiit entered in union with us willingly.Alicia Jornali wrote:And before you lecture me, I know what slavery looks like - I have seen it in person. I can tell you with certainty that the Dominion's treatment of the bosmer and khajiit is slavery to the letter.
Because that strategy paid such great dividends for the Stormcloaks. The Nords rejected Imperial rule; they demanded their sovereignty and independence; and they were ruthlessly crushed under the boot of an Imperial military occupation. That would have been our fate, had we not struck the first blow. We fought for our freedom. Inaction is not peace - it is pre-emptive surrender. An assertive Empire is a menace to all the free nations of Tamriel. Only by chastening Cyrodiil from dreams of reconquest may we preserve the greater peace and uphold our sovereignty.Alicia Jornali wrote:You wait until they respond to your demand for sovereignty, defend your island, and wait for them to be recalled. It is very difficult for the Empire to continue an unpopular war.
It is because of the Empire's spy network that there was a war in the first place. The Emperor dispatched hundreds of his Blades throughout Valenwood. Their intent was clear. Do recall that after Valenwood seceded from the Empire and entered in union with the Dominion, the Empire fought unsuccessfully to retain their domain. There is no reason to believe that they were not plotting the reconquest of the region. But their spies were discovered and executed. When the Dominion demanded compensation, the Empire refused. And so began the First War against the Empire.Alicia Jornali wrote:As for spies, I think you are a bit paranoid. The Empire's spy network was never that good.
I will not enter into the debate of who was truly responsible for severing the connection to Oblivion. It seems a great insult to me that the Imperials would claim singular responsibility for ending the Daedric threat, when all the races of Tamriel fought with equal ferocity against the hordes. I will merely state that regardless of what the last Septim was doing in Cyrodiil, there would not have been an Alinor left to save if the Thalmor had not stemmed the Daedric tide. We were on the verge of extinction before we rallied behind them. They saved us from destruction. This is known.Alicia Jornali wrote:I'm sorry, but they would have been overrun if not for the actions of Martin Septum.
Agrippina- Posts : 74
Join date : 2012-04-05
Re: Settling the Record
I understand that some people don't like the Thalmor but here's the thing. I love the Empire and I'm loyal to it forever. If they ally with the Thalmor, then I am an ally. As for the Talos thing, we can worship quietly. We don't have make a huge deal about things. They will calm down eventually.
Arla Neerus- Posts : 437
Join date : 2012-04-02
Re: Settling the Record
Pah. You have your Stormcloak rebellion as evidence, but of what? The reason they rebelled was because of your Thalmor laws, you realize? Also, the true warriors of Tamriel fought the Thalmor to a standstill, lest you forget. I know this has nothing to do with what you said, but I thought that bringing it up might be fun.
Also, being 'willing' is relative, is it not? I'd be 'willing' to join many a cause if the leader of said cause had a blade to my neck.
Also, being 'willing' is relative, is it not? I'd be 'willing' to join many a cause if the leader of said cause had a blade to my neck.
Azim Dekshari- Posts : 40
Join date : 2012-04-07
Re: Settling the Record
Don't bother trying to argue with the Thalmor ring-kisser here. From the views of the "Glorious Altmer Master Race", we are but lesser species who do not deserve to breath the same air they do.
Amelin- Posts : 126
Join date : 2012-04-04
Re: Settling the Record
My point was that the Empire - praised as a beacon of justice and tolerance - ruthlessly quashed the Stormcloak uprising and retained Skyrim only by dint of military force, with the local population greatly opposed to the continual presence of the Legions. Yet this same Empire as praised as a fortress of freedom, standing against the malicious and maniacal Dominion. When the Empire will not grant independence to a province that no longer desires to remain a part of it, it forfeits any moral high ground it might claim. It is an ossified autocracy that has survived against - rather than because - of the will of the people.Azim Dekshari wrote:You have your Stormcloak rebellion as evidence, but of what? The reason they rebelled was because of your Thalmor laws, you realize?
Of their own volition, the Bosmer overthrew the Imperial administration, seceded from the Empire and asked for union with the Altmer. The Khajiiti kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine withdrew from Elsweyr and became our protectorates in gratitude for the Altmers' role in ending the lunar crisis. They were entirely willing, no matter how you try and spin it.Azim Dekshari wrote:Also, being 'willing' is relative, is it not? I'd be 'willing' to join many a cause if the leader of said cause had a blade to my neck.
For someone so apparently outraged by the alleged racism of the Altmer, you seem more than willing to indulge in racism yourself.Amelin wrote:Don't bother trying to argue with the Thalmor ring-kisser here. From the views of the "Glorious Altmer Master Race", we are but lesser species who do not deserve to breath the same air they do.
Would you care to refute - or even to read - what I have written, or are you content to dismiss anything I say on the mere basis of blood?
Agrippina- Posts : 74
Join date : 2012-04-05
Re: Settling the Record
Amelin wrote:Don't bother trying to argue with the Thalmor ring-kisser here.
Finally! Someone voices the only sensible option in this mess.
Calith- Posts : 104
Join date : 2012-04-08
Re: Settling the Record
I can't help but think we've met before.
oh yeah by the way thalmor suck
oh yeah by the way thalmor suck
Kennek-Getha of Iblan- Posts : 361
Join date : 2012-04-02
Re: Settling the Record
Aye, it's like arguing with the Grey-Manes and their so-called rivals the Battle-Borns over ANYTHING.Calith wrote:Amelin wrote:Don't bother trying to argue with the Thalmor ring-kisser here.
Finally! Someone voices the only sensible option in this mess.
Honestly, I've only met a few of each family's members and I can hardly stand either of them.
Asren Free-Spirit- Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-04-04
Re: Settling the Record
Those who refuse to argue are much like an army that refuses to take to the field: they concede the battle by default.
Agrippina- Posts : 74
Join date : 2012-04-05
Re: Settling the Record
Simply knowing you're outmatched does not mean you loose.
Asren Free-Spirit- Posts : 187
Join date : 2012-04-04
Re: Settling the Record
AND THOSE WHO MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE ARMIES NOT ON THE FIELD TEND TO MISS THOSE FLANKING THEM
Amator Bellum- Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-04-03
Re: Settling the Record
I have no great love for the Thalmor, but at least they're equal opportunity oppressors. There's the Altmer, then everyone else beneath them without any of this King, Queen, Lord, Lady, Thane triblist nonsense.
Plus, the Empire can go screw itself with something sharp and pointy.
Plus, the Empire can go screw itself with something sharp and pointy.
Regulus Vortens- Posts : 18
Join date : 2012-04-20
Re: Settling the Record
Hey!
What's is wrong with the Empire? I'm Imperial and for the record, we tend to HELP EVERYONE. The only people still grouchy about Imperial rule usually are bad guys and those...what are they? Stormcloaks.
If you obey the law, the Empire is the best thing.
What's is wrong with the Empire? I'm Imperial and for the record, we tend to HELP EVERYONE. The only people still grouchy about Imperial rule usually are bad guys and those...what are they? Stormcloaks.
If you obey the law, the Empire is the best thing.
Arla Neerus- Posts : 437
Join date : 2012-04-02
Re: Settling the Record
The Empire does not help anyone, save the circle of courtiers at its centre, who amass affluence and power while the provinces go to ruin.Arla Neerus wrote:What's is wrong with the Empire? I'm Imperial and for the record, we tend to HELP EVERYONE.
Agrippina- Posts : 74
Join date : 2012-04-05
Re: Settling the Record
The Empire keeps us safe and expands our borders and makes things fair. Bandits don't come attacking my farm because there is a fort nearby. I don't have to worry about being robbed at work because Imperial Soldiers were nearby.
Some people are just rich and rule over us, that's normal and I don't mind.
Some people are just rich and rule over us, that's normal and I don't mind.
Arla Neerus- Posts : 437
Join date : 2012-04-02
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TESRP :: In Character :: Apocrypha
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